Curse

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

You gotta be kidding me. First of all PvPers are too embarrassed to call half the PvP modes in the game even PvP. So that leaves us with GvG and maybe HA/TA if no scrubby builds are around. Secondly have you even been in competitive scene of PC games? CS, Starcraft, WCIII... where's Guild Wars? For "ground up competitive game" it's kind of strange that PvPers have to grind gold for their guild hall changes and farm skill unlocks to even create builds. There's no possibility for players to create their own leagues. Best PvP out of any online game? Never was and never will be. Stop believing in advertisement slogans.

1. Getting the money for your guild is jack easy that I couldn't even pin the word "farm" next to it.
2. Unlock packs eliminate the "farm" needed to unlock skills.
3. In terms of actual play, it's one of the most in-depth and strategic games out there. But it lacks the support that other devs have from a broad and wide history of successful and popular games.

moriz · Jun 09, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

had guildwars been named Warcraft: Eternal Warfare (along with a number of cosmetic changes to reflect the name), it would be the most popular game ever created.

the game was "new", both as a franchise as well as a series. it needs to attract/grow its own player base without drawing from those in an established franchise. unfortunately, it generally attracted the wrong crowd. at least, not the crowd that the original developers were intended.

GW eventually bent to its players' pressures. instead of being an excellent pvp game with proper support, most of its resources got diverted into making it another pve grinder.

unfortunately, that puts the game in a bad position. it's got the best underlining framework for pvp in the RPG genre, but lacks proper support to facilitate it. it tries very hard to be a pve grinder, but doesn't have the proper framework to support it. as such, it does decently well, but never extremely well, in any category.

Crom The Pale · Jun 09, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Are we just listing the things we like in GW vs other games or actually debating GW's overall worth?

Personally I find the graphix in GW are very nice though there are better out there.

The varying levels of difficulty are wide enough to keep most people happy, though other games are harder or easier in some aspects.

PvP in GuildWars was handled often and well for my 2cents. They never let it get overly stale or boring in 3+ years(mind most of the PvP I do is AB, the fact that so many still play in all the other PvP options stands for thier satisfactory gameplay)

The range of End-Game content is just wide enough to keep people trying new things, be it grinding titles/gold/items or creating new chars to test out all 10 profs and every combo of secondary profession.

While some of these aspects have been done better in other games few have brought ALL of them together in such a well designed game.

Yichi · Jun 09, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- You gotta be kidding me. First of all PvPers are too embarrassed to call half the PvP modes in the game even PvP...

This is because half the modes are PvX, not true PvP. Granted there are some player killing elements in them, but they have more of a PvE intelligence behind them. Stand here, cap this, kill these npc's, control your heroes to do this... How is this Player vs Player to its fullest extent? The only truly organized PvP in this game is TA/HA/GvG. These formats are some of the best formats for structured PvP play there is out now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Secondly have you even been in competitive scene of PC games? CS, Starcraft, WCIII... where's Guild Wars? For "ground up competitive game"¹

Actually I have played other games that had competitive PvP and the structuring, framework, balancing, player skill, etc. behind the drive for their PvP I found very lacking to what Guildwars initially offered. Sadly it has now fallen by the wayside of good/mediocre PvP games with nothing really making it shine and create the draw it once had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

There's no possibility for players to create their own leagues...

Really so you're telling me that there's never been player interest or player ran PvP games/mini tournaments/rawr cup/now the guru gvg challenge ever in this game? Do you even play PvP at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Stop believing in advertisement slogans.

comes from personal playtime, not advertising slogans because trust me, ANET gives 2 shit's less about PvP in this game anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tingi

He probably meant in an MMO but whatever...

No I didn't and many of the PvP players felt this way, but sadly Anet has caused a good majority of them to re-think their belief in the game with the choices they have made.

Yawgmoth · Jun 09, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

- Originally - Unique Fair 'pay once, play forever' business model, where you pay only for large chunks of content, full game releases, and without them selling ingame advantages for extra $. (this unfortunately changed a bit later with them selling unlocks for noobs and BMP BS infinite item generation for $$)

- One interconnected world - no splitting to separate servers - you can meet and play with anyone who plays GW! I believe this feature is totally unique and I love it.

- Best organized PvP I've seen in an online rpg, also supereasily accessible - PvP characters and the fact you DON'T NEED to have 500+ skills unlocked to be competetive, you *need* 8, then it's all about your and your team's skill.

- The whole idea of balance based on limiting attribute points to 200 and skills to 8, with a huge selection of skills to create a bazillion of build combinations.

- Graphics and art design which really stands out + a powerful engine so the game runs smoothly even on weak machines.

aapo · Jun 09, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

1. Getting the money for your guild is jack easy that I couldn't even pin the word "farm" next to it.

- 5 cents is such a small sum if it would be deducted from your bank account every time you did a mission you wouldn't even notice. That's not the point. If it's PvP game then money grind has no part of PvP process. For some strange reason people seem to be so happy that they don't have to grind to play PvP. More logical starting point would be that players are equal and power creeps only through explicit grinding process (ie. random small chance of finding a powerful weapon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

2. Unlock packs eliminate the "farm" needed to unlock skills.

- It appealed to my casual PvP sense, grinding one skill at a time and feeling good about day's work. But are you going to tell someone who has just bought the game and wants to compete in PvP "Sorry dude, your skills are locked and you gotta buy skill unlock pack. After that you can go to GuildWiki and copy builds while grinding at least 6 ranks of Hero title doing spiritway to be accepted to xenophobic PvP elite." What a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

3. In terms of actual play, it's one of the most in-depth and strategic games out there. But it lacks the support that other devs have from a broad and wide history of successful and popular games.

- How many games have you played? Any strategy game gets me thinking more than this one. Oops, can't say strategy game must be f2p MMO. Saying so reveals the whole problem. A game that must at the same time appeal to fantasy crowd, I-don't-pay-bills crowd, PvP crowd - you get Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

had guildwars been named Warcraft: Eternal Warfare (along with a number of cosmetic changes to reflect the name), it would be the most popular game ever created.

- Warcraft became popular because it was a good game, not because its name was Warcraft. Quality of a game is a kind of thing that can't be measured directly. When Blizzard released Frozen Throne, it didn't have any imbalanced units that immediately ruined games for everyone. When ANET released Nightfall, suddenly the whole HA was flooded with "kill every enemy in the area" -Dervishes. When Blizzard releases patches, those patches balance skills. When ANET releases patches, those patches destroy skills. How many examples do we need?

You could say that at least they fix things. Yup, but then they fix again because the fix 1 didn't work. This reminds me of monkeys that can write Shakespeare given enough time for trial and error.

Winstar · Jun 10, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

For some strange reason people seem to be so happy that they don't have to grind to play PvP. More logical starting point would be that players are equal and power creeps only through explicit grinding process (ie. random small chance of finding a powerful weapon).

That is a horrible idea. The best system is one which removes as many such random and grind based elements as possible. Money is no actual barrier to pvp especially now that you can just buy a pvp version of the game and start with skills unlocked. This is the sort of approach that should have been taken right away and it came too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- It appealed to my casual PvP sense, grinding one skill at a time and feeling good about day's work. But are you going to tell someone who has just bought the game and wants to compete in PvP "Sorry dude, your skills are locked and you gotta buy skill unlock pack. After that you can go to GuildWiki and copy builds while grinding at least 6 ranks of Hero title doing spiritway to be accepted to xenophobic PvP elite." What a joke.

Is this a joke? Anyway, you can buy a pvp version of the game and play right off now as I said for 20 bucks and play. Unlocking skills is not a difficult process. To get a characters ready to play is a simple process that with little effort gets you to a position where you are on par with everyone else expect for your skill. Which is the point.

Even if it could be easier its still MUCH MUCH easier than saying. Sorry man, you have to grind up to max level, get equipment and also all the skills and then you can pvp. Having an autonomous PvP creation process makes it much easier to access pvp than having to do so through pve leveling and removes the unequal gear aspect which should not be there anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

When ANET released Nightfall, suddenly the whole HA was flooded with "kill every enemy in the area" -Dervishes. When Blizzard releases patches, those patches balance skills. When ANET releases patches, those patches destroy skills. How many examples do we need?

Nobody is denying that the game was mismanaged with the release of expansions. That is what most PvPers complain about. The point is that the groundwork and structure was there for a great game which was fumbled through mismanagement.

cellardweller · Jun 10, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

The level cap that was reachable within a few hours of play was by far the best thing in the 3 games. Its a pity they destroyed the concept with later updates.

Darksun · Jun 10, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

-No Fee

-Combat blows away every other MMO.( WoW, Lineage, Domo, ROSE, AO they are all so slow, projected, unengaging, derivative & gear based )

-Non Gear based(I should say, not AS gear-based since runes etc make a diff)

-Graphics were better than all others(at the time, although it's still better than most)

-took out the travel grind

-removed the "ok now go spend 30 minutes hunting for the next place you have to go to complete the quest"

samifly · Jun 10, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Warcraft became popular because it was a good game, not because its name was Warcraft...

I like and play WoW but I am pretty sure a lot of its original appeal comes from the fact that its from Blizzard and is name Warcraft.

As to what GW did best =

Level/Item/Armor Caps.

FoW

GvG

Prophecies non-linear access.

Lawrence Chang · Jun 10, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

-No Fee

-Combat blows away every other MMO.( WoW, Lineage, Domo, ROSE, AO they are all so slow, projected, unengaging, derivative & gear based )

-Non Gear based(I should say, not AS gear-based since runes etc make a diff)

-Graphics were better than all others(at the time, although it's still better than most)

-took out the travel grind

-removed the "ok now go spend 30 minutes hunting for the next place you have to go to complete the quest"

Non Gear based.... I'm not sure thats such a good thing. Ruins the whole point of PvE.

PvE should have never been balanced with limitations as to everything in the game is the same, with the exception of the skin. Leave that to PvP.

On a side note, WoW > GW.
95% of GW players would stop playing if GW charged $15 monthly.

WNL · Jun 10, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

On a side note, WoW > GW.
95% of GW players would stop playing if GW charged $15 monthly.

Put it in a different prespective since you put the word "if" there, 95% of GW players > WoW in terms of monthly currently.

Sorry to the OP I didn't list out the aspects on my previous post in this thread, here they are:-

-GW being monthly fee free.

-Great art direction.

-PvP is non gear based.

-PvE is more focus with mission concept.

-Max gear is obtainable easily and vanity is optional.

Mac Sidewinder · Jun 10, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I really don't know why people say that PVP in GW is the best there is. I think it is too limited. You know where the enemy is coming from - how many there is going to be - what the maps look like, etc. In my viewpoint this if very limited.

I played Dark Ages of Camelot quite a bit when it was more popular and I think the PvP in that blows away GW. You could have hundreds of players from three different realms (each realm having 10 or so types of characters) all batteling at the same time. You never knew where the next fight was coming from - how many opponents you would face - or the make up of said force. Also what happened in PvP affected alot of the things that occurred in your own realm on the PvE side. Alot more exciting to me than this small scale, small map fighting.

Hopefully GW2 incorporates this massive scale battle type. Maybe players then will get the feeling that what they do in pvp actually matters to their side (realm or whatever).

Lady Lozza · Jun 10, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I don't understand why people say "GW should be like generic mmo X".

GW was DIFFERENT. Which is a large part of why I bought it.
- low level cap, no grind for hp or mana
- non-gear based, yippee!
- arena style pvp (not to say I don't like others only that many games implement it poorly, imho)
- 8 skill bar

DarkNecrid · Jun 10, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Aspect of Kormir.

That is all.

nekopowa · Jun 10, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Everything.

You realize that when you install any of those korean grinders and/or traditional mmorpgs. GW is made of win, it's just old and people have played through it a million times.
GW2 pls!

ilipol · Jun 10, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

The best part of GW for me is that there is no pressure to "play because you have invested money in it" ...

Other than that great PvP, descent storyline for PvE, good graphics ...

upier · Jun 10, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Chang

On a side note, WoW > GW.
95% of GW players would stop playing if GW charged $15 monthly.

The big question is though - how many people would even play WoW?
It's not that the playerbase wouldn't play GW with a fee, it's that the GW playerbase wouldn't play ANY game with a fee!

Glider of chaos · Jun 10, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

No monthly fee. It's actually pretty important cause I don't feel to play more to get more gameplay for my money.
There's no microtransactions and selling broken stuff for real money.
No need to gring armor, level and stuff. (title grind is totally optional).
Heroes and Henchmen!!!!!! I love those guys. They let me play alone when I don't feel like playing with real people, if I know that I may need to go in the middle of the quest and they make it really easy to fill couple of missing slots in a guild group.
Ability to play for half an hour and have fun. I can login, play few RA matches, chat with guildies for a bit or just finish some quest before going to sleep.
Map travel is perfect idea, no more boring running from town to town. ^^
Ability to toy with build and change it without any restrictions.
Instanced nature of GW works like a charm for me.
"Save build" button ^^

WNL · Jun 10, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The big question is though - how many people would even play WoW?
It's not that the playerbase wouldn't play GW with a fee, it's that the GW playerbase wouldn't play ANY game with a fee!

Time will change people, though GW did rope people with no MMO background into online rpg game, in time some will seek something new and fresh, $15/month MMOs are one of those, I personally looking forward to WAR since it is based on a well known universe, but leaving for a new game does not mean GW is bad game.